this post was submitted on 26 Jul 2026
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[–] nkat2112@sh.itjust.works 100 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

The article wastes no time getting to the underlying point in the very first paragraph:

Top executives at leading Western AI companies are increasingly warning about the safety and national security risks posed by Chinese open-weight frontier models. What they tend not to mention is that these models are improving rapidly and, because they are freely available, pose a serious threat to Western labs’ business models.

I found the following two paragraphs interesting:

By mid-2026, however, open-weight frontier models from Chinese labs such as Alibaba, DeepSeek, and Moonshot AI had nearly matched the leading Western models in intelligence and performance. Many companies have already begun building their AI systems on top of these free models, avoiding the high cost of closed-model APIs.

Because businesses can host open-weight models in their own private clouds, they can also avoid sending proprietary data to systems controlled by outside providers. Developers can fine-tune the models for specific needs, build applications and tools on top of them, and optimize them for their preferred infrastructure.

[–] Mosfar@sh.itjust.works 74 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Back to local computing is the way to go

[–] artyom@piefed.social 15 points 3 weeks ago

It always has been. And yet consistently for decades they continually turn to Big Tech anyway...

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 49 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

they can also avoid sending proprietary data to systems controlled by outside providers.

Not only proprietary but also personal or other kinds of sensitive data.
If you are doing health research on databases of personal health data, you should be able to guarantee the safety of that data.
That means you can't use the current American systems, because they've been shown to be insecure.
This would be a major issue in EU, where such data is legally protected.

[–] plyth@feddit.org 11 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

This would be a major issue in EU, where such data is legally protected.

Nothing a EU–US Data Privacy Framework can't handle.

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 13 points 3 weeks ago

I absolutely agree that that agreement is complete and utter bullshit.
Hopefully the shift there has been to achieve IT independence from USA will mean EU doesn't give in so easy next time.

[–] cavitationfetishist2@quokk.au 5 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

These people are too rich to be punished by laws. They're the people laws protect not the ones they bind.

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 5 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Not in EU, Eu has given fines to those big tech companies before and can do it again.

[–] grue@lemmy.world 13 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Fines are just the cost of doing business.

Wake me up when corporate charters are dissolved and executives are put in prison.

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[–] FauxLiving@lemmy.world 49 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

The Western model was doomed to failure from the start. The only barrier to entry was being able to download thousands of TBs of internet archives/books and to have a lot of compute.

The math for these models isn't proprietary and most CS students are exposed to machine learning and neural networks while in school.

The only advantage western companies had was the ability to buy up the entire hardware market, pricing out domestic competition, and to use their politicians to manipulate trade policy in order to restrict sales of critical hardware to China.

Every US tech company has dumped billions investing in an unsustainable business model with the hope of buying a global monopoly by strangling competition.

China can destroy all of that by making their models open weight. The real money is in finding and implementing custom AI solutions... not in charging for access to the models. By having freely available models, they're making the barrier of entry as low as possible.

Not to mention that the insane amount of money being poured into hardware by US tech companies has created an environment where building fabs has a much shorter ROI, which also helps China's development in that sector.

US companies are playing Monopoly while China is playing Civilization.

[–] Cheebus@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago

I still think this type of AI can lead to a worse state of living for most of us, but it’s better than the bullshit in the US.

Eat my ass Musk, Zuck, Altman and all you other fuck face tech bros

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[–] DJKJuicy@sh.itjust.works 39 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

I ran DeepSeek and Llama and Mistral at home on my consumer grade gaming PC.

With a little tweaking of the system prompts and configuring web search, I was running a local LLM that felt pretty darn close to the commercial LLMs.

With this technology out in the open internet where you can download the models in a few hours I don't see how the commercial AI companies are going to last. If selling "Artificial Intelligence" subscriptions is all your company does for revenue, you're screwed.

I downloaded and ran an LLM that I could have a conversation with and feed basic coding problems to for basically zero dollars and ran it on my puny gaming machine...puny compared to enterprise-class hardware. It would be trivial for a company with a very moderate budget to buy some servers and start running their own LLMs that they can use to feed all the PII and HIPPA data they want.

[–] brucethemoose@lemmy.world 24 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

And Llama and Mistral are ancient history at this point.

The cutting edge of local is lightyears better now. It's basically where ChatGPT/Anthropic were not that long ago, with a bit less world knowledge because of the size.

[–] DJKJuicy@sh.itjust.works 11 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

What's the cutting edge now? Skool me...I want to try it. Can I grab one using ollama?

[–] brucethemoose@lemmy.world 15 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (10 children)

https://sleepingrobots.com/dreams/stop-using-ollama/

And this is just the tip of the iceberg for ollama. They're the same kind of scammy tech bros as OpenAI.

The best setup depends on your hardware. There is no "easy button" unfortunately, quantized LLMs are just too intense and finicky to run without making some informed choices.

It also depends on what you want to do with the LLM. For example, some are too slow or bad at long context for agenic use, some quantizations are great at scripts but terrible outside that, or vice versa.

But LM Studio and Qwen 3.5 35B Q4 is probably the "easiest" flat recommendation I can make.

Or... honestly, just pay $40 for basically unlimited usage for a year from an API, then roll your own frontend.

[–] LedgeDrop@lemmy.zip 6 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

Or... honestly, just pay $40 for basically unlimited usage for a year from an API, then roll your own frontend.

Can you clarify, what you mean by this? Rent a VPS? Or is there a legitimately good place that'll offer "unlimited" llm api access for $40 / year (and would you have any sort of privacy with this)?

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[–] naught101@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Why are quantised LLMs harder to run than non quantised ones?

[–] brucethemoose@lemmy.world 9 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I just meant that you have to be cognizant of what went into the quantization.

As an example, a “Q4_K_M” could be too much quantization to be usable on one model, and an inefficient waste of space on the other. Two Q4_K_Ms of the exact same model could be completely different, one totally borked. Or one particular Q4_K_M could excel in one task, but be totally useless for another, even with the exact same settings, when a slightly different sized or type of quantization would excel.

It’s a deep rabbit hole. It’s not random either; there are distinct technical reasons behind every case mentioned above.

And that’s not even at the cutting edge quantization anymore, though what’s “cutting edge” completely depends on your particular hardware and use case.


I’m trying to make this sound daunting on purpose.

Many people have really horrible experience with a default “ollama run” for this exact reason, because the defaults are terrible and the customization is critical to getting coherent, performant output.


Unquantized LLMs, on the other hand, are basically always run the same way: vllm docker image on a big server, official weights. There’s less to “go wrong” trying to squeeze it on hardware with unofficial runtimes and compressors.

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[–] Balinares@pawb.social 4 points 3 weeks ago

Depends on your RAM (main + GPU), but assuming 32GB total: Qwen 3.6 35B A3B for coding support, Gemma 4 26B for general stuff. The LM Studio app curates a list of recommended models that will run well in it and makes it easy to run them.

Mind you, what I like most about local models is their limitations, because it turns out closed models have limitations of the same nature, just with quite a bit more runway; and becoming aware of those limitations is valuable.

[–] D1re_W0lf@piefed.social 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Thanks for the info. I don’t follow it closely but afaik wasn’t Mistral the only western open weight model around?

[–] brucethemoose@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Mistral is still around, but for local LLMs... they're kinda irrelevant, sadly. Their models have regressed. I think they're being choked by ambiguous EU law.

If you're looking for "western" weights, I'd look at the Laguna series first:

https://huggingface.co/poolside

And ik_llama.cpp quantizations like this: https://huggingface.co/sigargv/Laguna-M.1-GGUF/tree/main

There's a couple of other interesting startups, but TBH its hard to keep track of where they're from.

[–] D1re_W0lf@piefed.social 3 points 3 weeks ago

I wasn’t aware of that.

Thank you so much for the info.

[–] stankmut@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Since you mention using Ollama, you probably aren't running actual deepseek on your pc. Ollama took a Qwen model that was finetuned using deepseek output and named it deepseek.

Those are pretty out of date models at this point. Right now, the model most people would recommend for consumer gaming hardware is Qwen 3.6 27b.

[–] DJKJuicy@sh.itjust.works 3 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I actually tried Qwen 3.6 27B but it wouldn't quite fit in my 6900XT so I had to go down to the 14B. I don't have the tools or the skillset to really test the capabilities of an LLM but with some very rudimentary system prompts it felt quite natural to me. Shockingly natural considering that talking to a real LLM running on my own PC felt like it was smarter than the Majel Barrett computer on Star Trek:TNG...

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[–] Greg@lemmy.ca 22 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (5 children)

I just wish I could buy enough memory to run one of these models locally. Specially Kimi K3

[–] Dionysus@leminal.space 14 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Same, getting ~3 trillion parameters in consumer hardware is rough.

If Nvidia has any foresight they'll see the writing on the wall and start getting higher memory Spark style SMB inference machines, few people in the long run are going to pay retail API token costs,

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[–] brucethemoose@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

How much RAM do you have?

I can run MiMo 2.5 at about 9 tokens/sec, on 128GB RAM, a 7800 and a 3090 in an SFF rig. That's a fantastic 310B model. I'm requantizing it right now, to see if I can speed it up with Dflash.

Still fantastic models can be run on 64GB or 32GB CPU RAM, as long as you have some GPU. We're awash in sparse models these days.

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[–] eicker@lemmy.world 21 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

The awkward part is that software has a habit of racing toward free once it becomes good enough. If an open weight model delivers 95 percent of the value without recurring API costs, plenty of companies will choose that and spend the savings on integration instead. History keeps rhyming, even if investors hate the tune.

[–] ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net 6 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

The awkward part is that software has a habit of racing toward free once it becomes good enough

Has it? Jira, Teams, Slack, Google Meet, Cisco WebX... There's obviously Jitsi but I don't see companies racing towards it. When it comes to SaaS most companies prefer to pay and be done with it. Few are choosing to host open source solutions. Windows and Mac are also way more popular than Linux in office settings. With LLMs hosting it will be even more complicated because companies will have to invest heavily in GPUs.

If the bubble bursts companies will lose funds to work on new models but someone will still be able to offer existing models as a service. Companies will chose the one with better price and functionality. Being free or not will have little to do with it.

[–] eicker@lemmy.world 7 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Unfortunately, based on many years of experience, I have to agree. However, I also see a light at the end of the tunnel, particularly in Europe, where there is a growing desire to break free from the US SaaS stranglehold, using open source software.

Regarding OWAI I see a fundamental difference: Slack isn’t just software, it’s a hosted service with identity, storage and network effects.

An open weight model is more like a compiler: once downloaded, nobody can revoke it. You may still pay for inference, but pricing power drops when anyone can host the same model.

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[–] brucethemoose@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

They don’t have to host it themselves. They could use a number of providers for the same model, and basically keep doing whatever they were doing with OpenAI/Anthropic via the exact same APIs.

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[–] MangoCats@feddit.it 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

racing toward free once it becomes good enough.

I don't know... I was using Open(now Libre)Office over 20 years ago, it wasn't just good enough, it was better than MS Office at the time, and yet... even though LibreOffice has been free and far more than "good enough" for long over a decade, my corporate decision makers insist that we all use Office365 subscriptions, complete with their service outages and other issues.

[–] eicker@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Without a doubt. And yet: without open source, pretty much everything digital would come to an end straight away. Sometimes what’s visible isn’t what really matters.

[–] MangoCats@feddit.it 5 points 3 weeks ago

I have definitely seen MS Office and Visual Studio stall at a level and stay there until after they're clearly surpassed by open source competition, then they fund another round of development and ... change, some might say improve, but often it looks like change for the sake of change, especially in Office.

[–] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 12 points 3 weeks ago

Open models are still most cheaply hosted on a cloud, with batching and 24/7 use. API rates from developer lab are generally fair. Self hosting does have some significant tangible benefits though: Fine tuning for domain specific to organization, and not letting LLM provider train from your prompts/answers, followed by competing with your organization in the future as a result of "distilling your IP".

[–] yesman@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

is their a meaningful difference between open weight and open source?

[–] herrvogel@lemmy.world 25 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Pretty big difference. An open weight model is a model that you can run on your own machine. You just download and it's yours to host and use. You don't need to have anyone host it on their own backend for you, the entire model is available to you to do that on your own. What you don't have is any control over or access to anything related to how the model was trained. You don't know what kind of data they used to train it, and how exactly they used that dataset. If you did, that'd be an open source model.

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[–] melfie@lemmy.zip 5 points 3 weeks ago

Open weight is analogous to a compiled binary. Similar to how Windows is closed source, but still runs in your own hardware, whereas Linux is truly open source.

[–] brucethemoose@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

The localllama crowd has know this for years.

It happened faster than I expected, though; OpenAI/Anthropic hardly even got the chance to tighten the screws.

[–] danielfm123@lemmy.zip 9 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

That's the reason they are trying to embed AI into everything.

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[–] MangoCats@feddit.it 9 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

I see a business model where "we're done, this one is (finally) good enough and now we'll stop bleeding cash on the training and turn up the screws on the customers we've hooked on loss leader pricing." Open weight models will never stop training for improvement, the costs for training seem to be inexorably falling, and any business model built on the idea that they can kick back and roll in the profits after their initial "hard work" is going to lose all their customers to better products.

This isn't some captive market like US automobile customers who have no choice but the limited selection of crap, crap and more crap that is put in front of them. At least not as long as the internet remains relatively open.

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[–] ndupont@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 points 3 weeks ago
[–] ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago

Yes, but only if either the required hardware becomes affordable (don't expect frontier models to run on 5090s, let alone on the 1050Ti you're keeping as a backup), or somehow the models become more efficient. Even if by reduced capability, which might be a good thing in the grand scheme of things. Some people use overengineered frontier models as synonym search engines.

[–] Mwa@thelemmy.club 4 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

We even got open weight models that's 27B + 1-bit (and it still has good performance)

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